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What ending would you have liked to have seen, HK?
I think it was the only ending that would ever have worked, imo - and the only thing I hated about it was the sense of heartache and loss Roland felt as he saw what lay behind his own door.
BTW - one incongruity I can not figure out. How does Walter/Flagg know Roland is resuming his quest back in the Gunslinger? If Flagg knows Roland is looping, how come he does not foresee his end with Mordred?
;D
Seriously though, Flagg and metafiction go together like ham and eggs. He seems to know a lot of stuff he shouldn't know from outside the story. I think he is SK's evil avatar in the story.
Interesting...
Perhaps...but in this particular instance it feels like cheating to me. :-/
Perhaps Flagg is a character outside of Sk's influence (as far as the fictionalized SK in the story goes that is). He seems to have read (or at least be aware of) the first 4 Dark Tower books, according to "The Shining Wire", so maybe he knows what he knows because he read the books!
An intriguing possibility, Dem.
Well I would want an ending first of all - any kind of ending.
I thought it was so unfair that Roland could not put his feet up and have a beer after all that he went through. ;D
kidding aside - my DT series ends before the epilogue - The Tower could have remained a mystery as to what it contains. That's good enough for me.
I just don't like the whole story resetting itself when everyone has gone through so much. A re-established Gilead would have been nice. ANY reward would do for Roland saving the beam and all the worlds.
But to put him through a loop? - that's cruel (horn or no horn).
The man in black just comes back? - Flagg is reset - What - our world just goes back in time? - It takes all the - I wonder if that really happened? - out of the story.
Not that you'd think the events happened (Saving King's life,etc) - But it's fun to imagine the story is real and that ending just kills that thought. (Does that make sense?)
However, it would have been interesting to see a different "vision", one more static -- just for curiosity's sake.
Lin
Case in point:
The Stand - Using Harold to plant the bomb that killed half the Boulder Zone Committee lead directly to Stu, Larry, Glen and Ralph setting out for 'The Stand' and the quickening of his defeat. Even more glaring an error is the Trashcan Man. Need I say more? RF handpicked Trashy himself and got the A-Bomb in return that helped the forces of the White instead. And in between there was the Judge, Dayna and old Tom Cullen.
The Eyes of the Dragon - Thomas turned on him in the end.
So it is only fitting (for me at least) that in DT7, RF/Walter will be killed by his own hand. For it was he wasn't it who fostered the deal with Mia that lead ultimately to the birth of Mordred? If there is anything that sums up the character for me, it would be that he is a coward forever sending someone to do his bidding (just like his present master the CK) unless he is confident (or overconfident) that he will succeed or is forced by circumstances to do it on his own.
Also, I think that the final confrontation between Roland and RF is meant to be the one at the end of W&G and what did RF do? He fled with nothing so much as a limp warning. And so Roland slayed him there and then in a symbolic way. Roland slayed his confidence. This doomed RF to the fact that he will never muster enough courage to face Roland again especially this late in the quest when Roland's obsession is at its peak, all glammers notwithstanding, and to emerge victorious. Which is why he hated Roland so much and try to bypass him and claim the Tower first.
Just my two cents take on the subject :P :)
As for TRTTDT, still hasn't arrive here yet. Turned out I have to wait about a month maybe two after the release date to get it :(
[ I warn you that the next few paragraphs are pretty bleak. If you think they may make you feel worse about the ending than you do, stop reading now. ]
Firstly, for me it's a personal thing. I have nightmares about repeating the same thing over and over (or seeing a loved one hurt or killed over and over), and Roland's plight seemed like my own personal Hell. (Read King's postscript to "That Feeling ..." in Everything's Eventual for a similar take).
Secondly, almost immediately I realized that the whole story, all the moments of joy, of tension, of horror, of fear, of elation, of noble struggle, were instantly robbed of any meaning whatsoever. Even if Roland's ka-tet had failed, and the Tower had fallen - the worst ending I could imagine - at least the struggle itself would have had meaning. With this ending, it has none, because it effectively never happened. Even now, after reading some of the more positive interpretations of the ending, I wonder whether I'll be able to enjoy rereading the series, knowing that none of it amounts to anything.
Thirdly, I have to say that the ending doesn't make much sense to me. A lot was made in DTV-VII about not having any do-overs in the Keystone Earth. This was an important plot point, and added a lot of tension to the plot. Now, though, everything's undone; the whole series is a do-over. Furthermore, the Tower is in danger again. The existence of all universes relies on Roland being able to save it - again. Is Roland's need to "get it right" worth risking all of creation?
And in the back of my mind, I have a niggling worry that King ended the series this way because he thought it added cool - and cruel - twist, not because he saw it as an integral part of the story or the universe.
Whew.
The discussions about the ending are helping me deal
HBJ,
a bit surpised by what he's written here.
Sorry to budge in like this, but like to add my two cents if you don't mind
The way I see it, not everything's undone. Everything's undone only on this new level of the Tower. As Roland progresses through each 'loop' of the quest (or each spiral), he is also climbing up one level of the Tower at a time (if he learns to improve himself). I would say that the Keystone Earth also exist on this level of the Tower where Roland has a horn and likewise there is no do overs. My only take that may be different from the others who believe this karmic theory is that perhaps the writer here may not be SK. SK is the storyteller of Gan only on the level of the Tower where he tells his tale in the seven books we have come to love. Beyond that he can only go as far (as his storyteller eye can take him on this level) to say that the quest on this new level (or perhaps speculate because he likes that opening line so much
The reward has already been prophesised in conversations and what have you in the later books, telling that all would return as it once was after the Beams were saved and managed to renergise themselves, so on this level of the Tower before Roland goes through the door, the worlds will heal themselves and the lands around will be free from madmen and thinnys and the breaking down of everything.
Has King has shown us many times, the endings are in the eyes of the beholder in that, they are never what we expect or want them to be, but they are nevertheless real.
How many King books linked togther have we read where the book ends at a scene, and you hope everything will work out well for the characters, but in life that is rarely the case and something happens to them "off screen", later to be related in another book as a sentence that sends your heart plummeting.
The ending of the DT series really made my heart ache for what Roland saw and went through, but it was real.
Like King said, we each could have stopped at the real ending where Susannah is reunited with her family.
What pushed us to read the last part?
The truth.
As I said, these discussion have helped me deal
Dukky, to respond to your conversation with HK (if I could - sorry if I'm butting in), I agree that the ending is what it is. I can't say it's not right, or that readers can and should ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist. If nothing else, it would make discussion on this board very confusing
But I can not like it (which is all I was saying about it), and not like the consequences of it to the rest of the story.
Edited to add: I see what you're saying about stories continuing after the end of the book. My concern is that a lot of what the ka-tet achieved (the saving of the Beams, the restoration of all worlds, including Gilead) is called into question when Roland goes back to a time before those things have been achieved. I feel like we may be losing all that resolution, all that accomplishment, all that sacrifice in a few sentences.
I feel like I'm bringing everyone down with this negative take. I'll stop, as I did really like the rest of the book.
HBJ.
Just kidding.....not really.
I'm with you Hunchback Jack - I agree with everything you said and I don't like dissing the end of a fab book either.
I understand - levels of the tower, Karma, all that jazz - But the end still bugs the crap out of me. I do admit the ending works on many levels- but I think it still sucks.
Real to life? - that ending could not be further removed from reality. --- I know you meant that there is many ups and downs to life in general and no one winds up in the land of peaches and cream (or rarely do people's lives end with : and they all lived happily ever after)
AND -- I would have excepted a sad ending better than
a final door that erases memory and sends you out to another level of the tower. --- I still hate it! >:(
But I loved the rest of the tale - I still think the ending takes the magic out of the story - I don't know if I could read the series again as well - Now that I know the "end" - it's too upsetting for me to even talk about any of the books before - it just took all the interest out of me - It still seems pointless no matter how well it's told. - Hopefully I'll get over it
Dukky, King loves to give those choices.
HBJ and HK, you have every right to feel the way you do about the ending, otherwise that wouldn't be your truth.
Lin
I meant the truth in a general sense, where we see what really happens to Roland, rather than just imagining what might have happened to him.
But he does like to give the choices, yes.
Lin
HBJ
Lin
Roland reaches the top of the tower and finds a door. A door with no name - Roland is given the right to name the door whatever he wants - In the high speech he calls for Susan (his susan from DT4) ------- Whoops there he goes ;D ------ he's back in DT4 -full earth by Eyebolt Canyon.
He kills that witch Rhea of the Coos......
Saves Susan --- blah blah ---- goes back to Gilead with Susan and his buds (after besting the coffin hunters again) ---- Gets back, kills Walter or Flagg or whomever he is called......Makes Gilead strong again ---- Happy Ever after --- nice neat package. Roland gets to live as a young man again in love. ;D