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Comments
I agree the horn is a sign or sigul for when Roland reaches the next level of ka.
I would like to believe that at this stage, the next time Roland enters the Tower he will find the door at the top that will bring him to a life like that the Susannah ended up.
I do not know if Roland would ever get to a point where he could refrain from entering the Tower. He and the Tower are too intertwined for that.
Based on the poem, reaching the Tower with the Horn is the final condition Roland has to satisfy in order to break the loop.
But currently I have been tinkling around with the idea that maybe Roland is trapped at the top of the Tower and the loop is simply the infinite number of universes contained in the room at the top of the Tower because the Tower encompasses size and even something as small as a molecule of air can contain universes beyond end. So it is universes within universes, and with the horn, perhaps it is an indicator that with the next loop Roland may have indeed come to break through infinity itself and what is at the end of infinity? Nobody knows... and I sure wouldn't want to.
Heh, quite a silly idea but I thought it kinda interesting though. See if I can cook up some other in the coming weeks ;D
The adventurer within my soul would love to know what lies on the edge of infinty
metaphysics and infinty theories and mobius loops and what have you have fascinated me for going on two decades now.
For a mere mortal like me who think of things in finite terms, I am not sure my mind can handle concepts even remotely close to the infinite ;D
I don't believe that he's ever died. Gan says that there is much death on his journey, but never for Roland himself. He has always saved the tower, but his ruthlessness has perhaps decreased over time, justifying Gan in returning the horn to him.
As far as his salvation being to finally resist the pull of the horn, there's a couple problems with that. For one, the tower calls to him so strongly that he absolutely cannot resist it, would act in such a way as to drop all of his training (the showdown with CK)...there's not way around it. As he says near the end, his dream of reaching the tower always involved him blowing the horn...so this time, he will finally be able to fulfill that dream when he reaches the tower. And he'll finally be granted his reprieve.
Also, I believe he does draw the same ka-tet each time, but for them, it truly is the first time, every time. What happens to them may change from journey to journey, but this isn't so much being returned to life time after time after time (a la Groundhog Day), but rather, the past being changed, again and again.
Somebody stated that maybe his salvation relied upon his managing to save the ka-tet, but it seemed to me that it was pretty obvious that their ultimate fates are out of his hands. Eddie's death is a fluke that none of them saw coming, and Jake's death is a result of Roland failing, which is a result of the pain given to him by his creator (King/Gan). The pain forces him to fail. And of course, Oy dies to save him, when he absolutely could not stay awake, no matter how hard he tried.
Having said that, the ending for the rest of his ka-tet in the alternate New York bothered me a bit, seeing as how what I think of as True Jake and True Eddie are dead and buried.
And as far as Roland's fate, I'm satisfied, but saddened. He's in Hell right now (or Purgatory, at least). But it seems like he's finally close to earning his reprieve. I just wonder how he's supposed to really stand and be true. What he must change...dunno. And regarding this, something that really surprised me, reading people's various interpretations...it seemed like people missed something that really screamed at me.
Roland is sharing the fate of the woman in "That Feeling, You Can Only Say What It Is in French", which is collected in Everything's Eventual. As King states at the end of his short story, he states that he thinks that that story is about Hell, in which damnation is repetition. ByIn support of this, take note of the phrase used to describe Roland's feeling of familiarity as he finally reaches the tower: "deja vu".
And a question...some people are reading into Stuttering Bill a bit. I was wondering what I'm missing about him. I know that Dandelo is most likely It, which would make sense, as Patrick resided in Derry, and in Dreamcatcher, there are the references to the graffiti stating "Pennywise Lives". (Plus the fact that Dandelo turns into a clown is a dead giveaway.) So it looks like It made a break for it, grabbing Patrick and dragging him into End-World. But that brings me back to what I'm wondering, which is, what's the subtext with Bill, especially when it comes to his relationship with It. I get the inkling of something being there...but I can't grasp it.
Help, anyone?
Edit: Never mind. I should have figured that one out a LOT faster. Then again, it's been a few years since I read It, and remembering the names of characters has never been my strong suit. But that is something I shouldn't have missed. But, that seems to prove that Dandelo is It, and not merely a relative.
By the way, I believe that the members of his ka-tet repeat the journey each time with Roland, which explains their respective senses of deja vu and the way they acquire new skills so readily.
For what it is worth, I concur.
You have some very good thoughts there, and made me aware of a few things that I hadn't considered before.
The connection between Roland and the story in Everything's Eventual, I wish I could help there, but it is one of two stories in EE that I have yet to read.
I think you are right about Roland being in Purgatory, and maybe this horn he now has will be the key to getting him a pardon from hell.
The only problem with your words on Jake and Eddie dying, is that Jake has indeed died before, and as he points out, there are other worlds than these...
What I mean to say to this is that there is always an Afterlife, and nothing and no one ever really dies, for all things serve the Tower. It is acceptable and concievable for me to see them die, sad as it was, to be reborn as brothers in this alternate New York, and meeting Susannah again, and Oy will follow along as well in time.
the fact that this is all supposed to be the True Path where people de the true death...upon whose word do we take this snippet of information...
It could be that whoever told them that everything would be lost here and die here forever, could be an illusion in so much as limited informational intelligence by which to imptint important facts about certain things to the ka-tet.
Both Eddie and Jake died along the real world/path, and yet they are reunited with Susannah, and the journey they ahd has appeared as fragmented dreams to both of them similar to what happened in The Wastelands.
I daresay that when Roland redraws another ka-tet, it isn't necessarily these people as we have known and loved them, but a different facet of their personality within their faces...hope that made sense...lol
I didn't really see Dandelo as IT from Derry, because the Spider was an arachnid, wherby this is more like a bug with a carapace, reminiscent of armour plated insect...possibly beetle...
The Stuttering Bill connection, I am not sure if it really connects with anything...King may just have being paying homage to IT the book, and the Bill Denbrough character, like he did with Harry Potter and the Sneetches.
Hope this helps somewhat...they are my immediate thoughts anyway
The connection that I hadn't made was Stuttering Bill to Bill from It. Anyways, for me, there's just too many connections. I mean, turning into a clown, of all things. Plus it would explain Patrick's appearence in End-World.
Regard the deja vu of all the characters, I've forgotten these references...might have to start over...sigh.
The difference is that Jake actually remembered his first trip with Roland. Vaguely, but there was a definite memory of that time. The Toren brothers, on the other hand, have no clue whatsoever as to who she is, aside from the dreams.
It would seem to me that it was more of a case of a place being made for Susannah to finally rest, as opposed to actually resurrecting the "true" Jake and Eddie.
Anyways, thanks for the kind welcome.
Are we sure she died?
I don't think she did...
My reasoning for this is that the other gunslingers went down fighting in one respect or another. Susannah survived till the end and made her own choice to leave.
Consider that at any given moment a different decision could be made that changes everything after it.
On the other hand, if you feel that Roland will finally close the loop then the next go around should probably have the same events that the current seven books laid out.
I believe there is no right or wrong answer. The story is left in such a way that you can decide what will happen next.
Interesting isn't it that Roland's " darktower" is just that- a literal dark tower. The guy has absolutely no imagination.
The way I look at it, Dandelo is descended from the same line of creature as Mr Bob Gray a.k.a. Pennywise but of a somewhat lesser species (note that Dandelo's true form is of a cicada type while Pennywise is a spider). Also, perhaps Dandelo may not have been in Odd Lane that long to substantiate his glammer hold over the entire region as Pennywise did in Derry (remember the vision from the smokehole where Pennywise is seen as arriving in the place that will become Derry at almost the beginning of time) and he may be young still for creatures his age which would explained how Roland's gun can kill him off in a couple of shots. The robot Stuttering Bill may be SK's in-joke for his constant readers as well as a subtle hint of the connection.
Of course this is just pure speculation on my part like so many other silly ideas floating around in my head regarding the book right now but with no corroborating text I could say that I am correct as well ;D
I am convinced that Dandelo is It. I think it is very cool to think that It would name his servant robot Stuttering Bill as kind of a way to have control over Bill that he didn't have in Derry since Bill and his friends beat him twice. I do agree that Dandelo died too easily but that is rampant through book 7 (see Flagg, Crimson King)
Sure the ending makes sense but I think to write a book for 35 years and have people waiting for it rabidly in some cases, the story King should have told would be the time that Roland finishes his quest, not one of the billion times he goes to the Tower. I could be wrong here but I think it is in the first afterword to book 1 King says (paraphrasing) if Roland should come to the Tower with his horn at sunset you will be the first to know. I think the whole thing is a cop out. I have great respect for King and what he accomplished with the series and by no means want to start a pissing match, only interesting discussion. I understand when you are dealing with the center of existence it is very hard to come up with something that will satisfy everyone but to really, in my opinion, not even attempt to dazzle us with what is at the top of the Tower is unfair.
I am definitely a newbie here and am almost afraid to offer my own speculations among such experts
In the discussion of Eddie and Jake dying and being brothers in an alternate world where the living Susannah is able to join them....Could Eddie and Jake each possibly have "twinners" in the alternate realities (ala The Talisman), while Susannah, despite multiple personalities within, is a "singleton?" And thus able to travel back and forth between the worlds?
Is this a real possibility or am I grasping at straws?
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Linda
PS, Lin, thank you for the welcome on the other thread!
During Roland's visit to the Tet corporation, it's said that when King isn't writing Dark Tower novels, his other work is still influenced by the Song of the Turtle. Dark Tower elements find their way into his non-DT novels, out-of-context, as it were. I took this to mean that not everything related to the Dark Tower universe in King's non-DT novels are necessarily a true representation of what will happen or has happened in the "true" DT story.
So, King writes about the Crimson King and Patrick Danville in his novel Insomnia, influenced by the Song. However, King invents this prophesy about Patrick as part of the story of Insomnia. So although Patrick appears in the DT saga and plays an important role, the prophesy never comes about, because it was never "real" to begin with.
Similar things could be said about other King non-DT novels. For example, Low Men in Yellow Coats seems to be very close to DT truth. Black House ditto, although the twin nature of the Crimson King is suspect, and may have been an invention of King and Straub, rather than DT truth.
Of course, all this is in the context of the DT universe itself. Obviously, in real life, King invented everything. ;D
HBJ,
stopping before his head starts hurting.